Inadvertent Flag Quiz

[eme]

Please answer for NFHS and NCAA.

Team A in possession as the flag is thrown. Play continues.
Team A now passes the ball out of bounds (not a shot). Far side official signals Team B ball. At this point near side official realizes the flag is inadvertent...there was no offsides, etc.

Who is awarded the ball?
Would it make any difference if near-side official realized his mistake before the ball went out of bounds?


(Hint: my quiz is prmpted by poor or inadequate or unclear wording in the NcAA rules).

[TXD2LAX]

For NCAA wouldn't it depend on if the ball had entered the box before the errant pass was thrown? What I mean is:

If the pass was thrown OOB before they entered the box there was no disadvantage to team A, but if they entered the box and were being forced to "keep it in" I feel they would be placed at a disadvantage by the flag down situation requiring them to keep it in or play in order to keep it a play on situation.

[laxfan25]

I don't have time to look up my on-line rulebooks, but under the principle of "do the right thing", my gut says "bring things back to the situation when the flag was thrown" - in this case award to Team A in spite of their passing ineptitude. If the ball was loose at the time of the flag down, award by A.P. Having an apparent flag-down may have screwed with Team A's head, so I think awarding it to B because of the OOB seems to be unfair to them.
I'm sure the rules contradict all of this, but if I was in a game situation this is the call I would make and likely be able to sell. (And hope for no double-horn under Fed rules!)

[MElaxRef]

The OOB creates a dead ball situtation.

If the flag were correct, denoting a penalty on Team B with time to be served, then Team A would be entitled to possession at the OOB spot. Thus, Team A has a claim on possession.

However, if the flag had not been thrown, then Team B would be entitled to possession at the OOB spot.

Since the flag was inadvertent, I believe that the possession properly belongs to Team B. Team A had a FDSW scoring opportunity, which they threw away. I believe that the possession decision should be based on the facts that [a] there was no penalty on Team B and [b] Team A threw the ball OOB, rather than the fact that the official made a mistake.

[laxfan25]

the fact that the official made a mistake.
I see some of your point, but I think the screw-up by the officials should be the overriding concern - so restore things to the way they were at the time of the screw-up, IMHO. Hope the season is going well MELR!

[eme]

Gentlemen All: I am more interested in what the two sets of rules say. Your opinions can follow thereafter....

[laxfan25]

Gentlemen All: I am more interested in what the two sets of rules say. Your opinions can follow thereafter....
Well NOW you're assuming we actually have rulebooks, and READ them!

[jrb]

NFHS rules: Rule 7-13 Art 3.: "Inadvertent Flags. In the event of an inadvertent flag, play shall be suspended at the earliest opportunity that does not interfere with an imminent scoring opportunity. The team with possession when the flag was thrown shall retain possession. If the ball was loose, possession shall be awarded by alternate possession."

A had the ball when the flag was thrown, give the ball back to Team A

NCAA: 7-13 b) Outcome depends on whether 1) a goal is scored (in which case restart with a faceoff, 2) one or more shots are taken with no goal scored (in which case use AP), or 3) No shot is taken (in which case award the ball to the team last in possession).

In this case the team last in possession was A, if recognized before the ball went out of bounds and was awarded to B. If the inadvertent flag was recognized after the award to B, then one could make the argument that B was last in possession.

Since the rulebook is not clear, how about awarding the ball to A under the theory that they were last in possession while the ball was live with the flag down?

[shrekjr]

Not by the book...

Make it easy. Since there are too many what ifs, award by AP. Then make sure the one who threw the inadvertant flag buys the first beer! :dummy:

[MElaxRef]

The NFHS rule seems to be clear. Team A had possession when when the flag was thrown, so Team A gets the ball back. (Team A cannot score a goal, since the rule requires us to back up to the time the flag was thrown.)
NCAA: 7-13 b) Outcome depends on whether 1) a goal is scored (in which case restart with a faceoff, 2) one or more shots are taken with no goal scored (in which case use AP), or 3) No shot is taken (in which case award the ball to the team last in possession).
NCAA is the rule that is not clear. My opinion is that Team B last had possession, due to the OOB. Under NCAA 7-13,
[1] Team A gets the advantage of keeping a goal if they score,
[2] Team A gets to take multiple shots if they can control the rebounds, and
[3] Team B gets to keep possession if they intercept a pass.

To me, Team A throwing the ball OOB is like Team A throwing a pass to Team B. Team B possession stops the FDSW; since the flag was inadvertent, Team B gets to keep possession.

To further press my case, assume that, instead of Team A throwing the ball OOB, Team A looses possession in the attack area and then commits a loose ball push. In the absence of a flag, it would be Team B's ball.

I agree that the rule is not clear. Why should Team B be the loser in every scenario?

[laxfan25]

I agree that the rule is not clear. Why should Team B be the loser in every scenario?
IMM there is only one scenario - when Team A had the ball a flag was thrown by mistake, and I think this is one of a few instances where the NCAA should take a page from the NFHS. (I can't believe I actually wrote that!).

[MElaxRef]

My conclusion exactly, LF25.

[eme]

My conclusion, too. I find that NCAA wording "award to team last in possession" ambiguous.