Cheating refs

[lacrossehead]

i just finished a lacrosse game and the refs were terrible...they had terrible calls alll game but thats beside the point. They were a couple of teenagers and they did a stick check on my stick...it turned out to be illegal...they put my stick on the table in the officals place in the middle of the box...they said no one can touch this stick till after the game...they did another stick check on one of my teammates said his was illegal...he got the penalty and got his stick back but he put it in his bag... after the game i looked at my stick i tryed to make it illegal...i was doing everything i could but it kept rolling out smooth... the refs said my stick was too pinch???...its an answer so i know they warp... but they ball could move back inforth it could move forwards backward go out all sides...so can a head be too pinched if everything is ok with the stick?? plus the refs were on the other teams side so they were calling crap all day.... i really need help with this cus im mad!

[OwlsLax2]

All I know is that the top of your head like near the scoop has to be 6.5 inches wide at least. At least thats the rule where I'm from.

[lacrossehead]

its 7 and 3/4ths inches wide

[OwlsLax2]

Wow, I don't know then. I guess you did get screwed. Just shake it off and hope you don't get those refs again.

[lacrossehead]

this was an important game for me and im mad about it...we lost...and i love my stick so i didnt have a good feel the whole rest of the game


any other comments about what happened anybody go any idea y he didnt let anyone look at my stick but gave the other illegal kid stick back but jsut couldnt use it

[Raiderslax911]

i hate refs like that, so today we played a team down in peachtree city (we're in atlanta) and so we tied 3-3, cause they wanted to paly football pretty much all they did was hit. one of there goals a guy kicked our goalies stick while the ball was clamped under and they called a goal. another one hit off the pipe and flew down the otherside of the field and they said it was good

[brainddeadjock]

did you measure inside the head at the narrowest point. Answers tend to get called there. the 7.75" width seems too big. You may not be measuring the correct place.

SInce the ref returned the other stick, it means that the pocket was too deep, a fixable illegal stick, therefore returnable. Any other penalty, the stick muts remain on the scoreer table for the rest of the game.

[LaxRef]

It sounds like the ball probably didn't roll out of the stick. 3:00 NR and the stick is out of the game.

[Longpole5435]

It sounds like the ball probably didn't roll out of the stick. 3:00 NR and the stick is out of the game.
Agreed. Length could alos be an issue.

I don't think an Answer is 7 and 3/4 inches wide either.

[farside268]

You should also be careful about accusing any official of cheating. There are plenty of bad refs out here, and good refs who make bad calls, but I've yet to meet anyone who actually cheats. When you accuse someone of cheating, you're effectively calling them dishonest and a liar. If it were actually proven that an official was crooked, he'd never be able to work again. It happened to a soccer referee in Germany who had been taking bribes; he's now in jail.
Considering that most officials work a large number of games every year, I really doubt they'd be willing to risk their career over a single game. The refs you had may have been terrible, but be careful before you start questioning their credibility.

[Woodenstick]

If the ref said the stick was pinched, that means that the ball sticks in the head and does not roll out cleanly. Some players pinch their heads on purpose, or the stick can warp through use. The ref has no way of knowing,however, and just makes the call in either event. You say that the ball does not stick, but maybe you aren't doing the test right?

[Longpole5435]

I have a BN Answer right here. It is a tad under 7 inches across. Warping could definitely reduce that to an illegal span.

[lacrossehead]

well yea i didnt quite mean cheating a ton of terrible calls is what i meant...i kinda felt he was cheating seeing as how checks are suppost to be random and i scored 3 goals in the first quarter...but thats fine he may just wanted to check mine...but even at that he was the other teams ref and i dont think his call was exacly fair...but ive turn my stick everyway possible and it rolls out smooth...also he wouldnt know the length of it seeing as how he didnt have anything to measure it with...and when i measured mine its 7 3/4 at the top of the head thats where Owlslax2 told me to measure it...i just measured the smallest spot at the middle and its 3 3/4inches...a ball is like a little over 2 inches...there is plenty of room for the ball to move back and forth

[lacrossehead]

also could someone specify what exacly is an illegal pinch...

[Riot]

The ref in my game last night was horrible. He was giving the other team the worst calls ever, because their fans were heckling him. It was so annoying, we were up by 10, we didn't need his help. All it did was piss the other team off, there were almost three or four fights. He said, "I'll show them.." after one of the parents yelled at him. Game sucked.

[lacrossehead]

but dont get me rong im not knocking on refs some refs ive had were awsome totally kool about everything great games...i just want to get this figured out...i bet refs always get yelled at about what they did rong and rarely get any compliments

[LaxRef]

well yea i didnt quite mean cheating a ton of terrible calls is what i meant...i kinda felt he was cheating seeing as how checks are suppost to be random and i scored 3 goals in the first quarter...but thats fine he may just wanted to check mine...but even at that he was the other teams ref and i dont think his call was exacly fair...but ive turn my stick everyway possible and it rolls out smooth...also he wouldnt know the length of it seeing as how he didnt have anything to measure it with...and when i measured mine its 7 3/4 at the top of the head thats where Owlslax2 told me to measure it...i just measured the smallest spot at the middle and its 3 3/4inches...a ball is like a little over 2 inches...there is plenty of room for the ball to move back and forth

They are not supposed to be random. They use that word in the NFHS rules, but they contradict it when they say we should pick players involved in the scoring or who we suspect may be using illegal equipment.

[wolfenburg]

BTW. Are you allowed to ask the ref to check your stick before the game to make sure it is legal?

[Woodenstick]

BTW. Are you allowed to ask the ref to check your stick before the game to make sure it is legal?

You can ask. Most refs will oblige IF they have time, so don't do it just before the game starts. And any pre-game opinion is not binding if the stick gets checked during the game.

[lacrossehead]

great idea i'll ask them before the game to see what they say...the call was still rediculous

[3rdPersonPlural]

Too much pinch evidences itself in three ways. The head might be less than 6.5 inches wide at the widest part, or it might be more than 10 inches from top of scoop to bottom of ballstop. The roll out test is the most direct measure of pinching, but not the only measure.

[ThugLife9998]

i had the worst ref EVER yesterday too. I got layed out from behind, and the ref called me on it. He said that i pushed someone from behind???? What a 'tard. Eventually it all sorted out and the other guy got the penalty. Thats definatley the worst. I know that he meant to call the other guys number but still.

[3rdPersonPlural]

i had the worst ref EVER yesterday too. I got layed out from behind, and the ref called me on it. He said that i pushed someone from behind???? What a 'tard. Eventually it all sorted out and the other guy got the penalty. Thats definatley the worst. I know that he meant to call the other guys number but still.

Look fella. Lacrosse is growing like crazy and people who know the game and can find the time to officiate games and are willing to put up with the bull---- from fans and coaches and don't mind carving out 4 hours of a day from their career to make $50 are pretty rare.

Most incompetent refs are making calls that inconvenience both teams equally. I know that when I have a bad day and officiate with my mind elsewhere, both teams get or suffer bad calls or non-calls.

The idea is to play flawless lax so that even a first year ref working the game solo can't find any infractions - imagined or real - to put your team at a disadvantage.

Even with a full crew of seasoned refs, if your team is inclined to push the envelope it will discover that the assumed envelope is not always the ref's working envelope.

[PlayOn]

I was once again stuck reffing alone yesterday. I have been alone so much lately and it always gets sticky because at the end of the day, reffing alone leads to missed calls. I had 2 games in a row and both of the teams were pretty chippy so I tried to keep it under control as good as I could. At one point I had to put a kid away for yelling at me about illegal offensive picks. As I am putting him away for running his mouth the coach comes up to me and is like, you know he's right you need to start calling more. I am like buddy you're up by 13 points, I'm watching the ball, and I definetly didn't see any picks. Then I gave him a conduct foul because he continued to argue with me. Finally the game ends and I am chatting with some of the players and shaking hands and this parent comes up to me and says "Is this the first game of lacrosse you've ever seem?!" At first I laughed and was like very funny sir. then he gets in my face and is like no I am serious you're a complete moron. At this point he is right in my face so I start to tell him to leave the area and move towards him so he backs away. Now people are separting us. He goes in the stands and keeps yelling at me and i tell him to leave the field and if i see him in the parking lot i am going to call the cops.
He left after making a fool of himself for a bit more in the parking lot.

I have to say that anyone who assumes a ref is purposefully making bad calls clearly has no idea what it's like to ref a game. Especially the players who seem to have a remarkable level of awareness for rule book until they commit a blatant foul. Nothing feels worse than calling a bad game, and as a first year ref who continues to find himself pulling one man shifts I assure you we are not biased in anyway, we're just trying to call what we see and keep it safe.

[okemosLAX]

It may be due to warping. Ansewers tend to do that alot

[Woodenstick]

PlayOn, if you get hassled after a game, file a game report with your league and call the local police department and parks department so that they can take action to stop this kind of conduct. If it was a school game, email the AD and the principal. Email the president of the local league if it was a youth game. Otherwise the next referee will have to listen to the same idiocy. Or the next ref will be a kid and he will quit because he doesn't want this type of abuse.

Any ref who takes abuse and does nothing hurts every other referee.

[inblack]

All i can say to this one is that it is FLAT OUT NOT ACCEPTED up here for a Referee to EVER run a game alone.
(the only exception being Paperweight in Box lacrosse, 3-5 years old, and both Coaches are on the floor anyway helping the players play)
If you can't find another carded official in the area then the game does not happen. It prevents the situation that Play On found himself in, goes a long way for Liability coverage, and it forces the Referees to be commited to thier assignments.

As you can imagine there are penalties for the Referee who stood up his partner.

[spenny]

PlayOn, if you get hassled after a game, file a game report with your league and call the local police department and parks department so that they can take action to stop this kind of conduct. If it was a school game, email the AD and the principal. Email the president of the local league if it was a youth game. Otherwise the next referee will have to listen to the same idiocy. Or the next ref will be a kid and he will quit because he doesn't want this type of abuse.

Any ref who takes abuse and does nothing hurts every other referee.

i'm with woodenstick. you need to report that clown. that is so far over the line of acceptable behavior that he needs to be sat down before he either chases off some young refs, or actually hurts someone.

[lacrossehead]

hey hey hey guys...i have nuthing agianst refs all these other coversations are starting in my post its making me like im a ref hater or suming if you read MY post there is a complete different problem....i dont know if these comments are directed toward me but I LIKE REFS lol...what was so so mad about was his ignorance that caused my team the game...or maybe my ingnorance but im almost positive my stick is not illegal im trying th figure that out...but my head is a very small bit suspious because of the warp but by legal rule book terms its legal and any experianced ref would know that

[ColtsLax]

i am also a first year lax ref. i played all during highschool, but im not playing in college, so i decided to help the cause. In a situation like you describe, PlayOn, Your best bet is the either ignore, or ask the person to leave. If he continues, ask him after the game if he wants to ref. that usually get people off my back.

I am used to abuse from parents, i did soccer and baseball for 4 and 5 years respectivley, and those are more intense

[LAXMomx3]

MS games are not called very well here, but that's mostly because we are way ahead in player participation and somewhat behind in having enough officials, therefore HS kids end up calling games. This year, however, all the boys games have to have certified refs but the girls still don't. We (MS daughter) had a game on Saturday and one of the coaches for the other teams also refs HS games. He is one of the most experienced refs we have and USUALLY does a good job (although he can sometimes be seen rambling for the sake of hearing himself talk during a running clock). However, as a coach it was unbelievable to me when he went after the ref for not making calls. He yelled at her so much it made her cry! I felt so completely horrid for her. As a ref himself who was once a newbie, he should have been WAY more sensitve. I talked to him after the game (I've known him since my oldest played in HS) and when he started slamming the ref, I just replied that the bottom line was they were missed on both sides of the ball and so it wasn't like either team had an advantage. I do wish she had called a few more covers and empty stick checks, but again she was reffing the game on her own and it wasn't like she wasn't keeping the game safe. Plus, they're MS... and while the rules are important, it's also a good idea to let the kids play a little too and not be blowing the whistle every 5 seconds.

[3rdPersonPlural]

LaxMom, MN is not the only area where there are more teams than refs. Puff noted that there are 52 programs and 52 refs in CO. Poor PlayOn is a first year ref doing solo games in the Southern Section (LA)! I've done a half dozen or more solo varsity games this year, and I'm not the top soloist in my region by any stretch.

My surmise is that most people would rather play than ref, and by the time they can't really play anymore, they feel they're too creaky to ref as well. Also, I have had all of my weekends and 3 afternoons per week spoken for since early March. Not many folks have the kind of Professional flexibility I have, nor the willingness to loose all weekends for 8 weeks.

The money is nothing to write home about - essentially a break even proposition once you factor in car expenses, and a big loser if you consider foregone alternatives.

[FitzGoalie]

i recently saw an infuriating display of referee misconduct at a recent game. after a timeout, the refs were doing a routine stick check. one ref grabbed a stick from the other teams attackman, and did a simple, standard procedure stick check. the other ref grabbed one of our middies sticks. he held it up to check the pocket, and, looking dissapointed, started power-cradling the stick. he then checked it again, and not seeing his expected results, power cradled even harder. THEN HE USED HIS HAND TO PRESS THE BALL AS FAR AS HE COULD INTO THE POCKET. then he turned to his partner and said "this is illegal, right?" to which his partner responds "no, it's close, but it's legal." the bad ref, visibly angry then returned the stick to it's original owner.

[Valaxman17]

this was an important game for me and im mad about it...we lost...and i love my stick so i didnt have a good feel the whole rest of the game


any other comments about what happened anybody go any idea y he didnt let anyone look at my stick but gave the other illegal kid stick back but jsut couldnt use it


1)thats why you keep a backup that throws the same

2)Why does it matter its not like he got to use it anyways?

[Riot]

i had the worst ref EVER yesterday too. I got layed out from behind, and the ref called me on it. He said that i pushed someone from behind???? What a 'tard. Eventually it all sorted out and the other guy got the penalty. Thats definatley the worst. I know that he meant to call the other guys number but still. Haha, I got one of those called against me.

Also, my team was up by a couple, and there were under 2 minutes left in the game, so I had to keep it in the box. The ref had me start outside of the box (I was originally in the box), and then immediately blew his whistle and gave the other team possession because I wasn't in the box. Not really a big deal 'cause there was no way we were going to lose, but my coach chewed me out for it.

I also got called for slashing while I was driving to the goal. I don't even know if that is possible.

[lacrossehead]

i have a back up but doesnt throw well...i need to work on it...buti dont mean to change my story but im not quite sure he didnt get to use it i though he wouldnt be able to use it but the ref never said that...but i got that figured out my "illegal" stick was unfixable the other kids could have been fix that game... my stick is perfectly legal but im not gunna carry this on... i was mad when i typed this up...he was clearly an unexperianced ref...he didnt quite know what he was doing my coach had a looong talk with him after the game itll be fine but if i have him agian and he does it agian i will get very mad...how many days of trainning do refs have to have in the first place???

[ColtsLax]

LaxMom, MN is not the only area where there are more teams than refs. Puff noted that there are 52 programs and 52 refs in CO. Poor PlayOn is a first year ref doing solo games in the Southern Section (LA)! I've done a half dozen or more solo varsity games this year, and I'm not the top soloist in my region by any stretch.

My surmise is that most people would rather play than ref, and by the time they can't really play anymore, they feel they're too creaky to ref as well. Also, I have had all of my weekends and 3 afternoons per week spoken for since early March. Not many folks have the kind of Professional flexibility I have, nor the willingness to loose all weekends for 8 weeks.

The money is nothing to write home about - essentially a break even proposition once you factor in car expenses, and a big loser if you consider foregone alternatives.
Hell, i ref in NJ, a more lax inclined state and we still have problems getting refs. I think nation wide the sport is growing so fast, its hard to keep up.

I agree with you 3PP about the time requirement. Its easy for me, because im a college kid, so my summers are relatively free(i work at a bar at night) so i dont have a real job, but for most of the refs in my area, this is a second or even third thing for them. I know a lot coach as well. I coach a 5/6th grade travel team, but they are from the same league.

Every sport has bad refs/umps. It just seems more common here because there is such a smaller pool of guys.

[Eagle Middie]

My team had to deal with officials who were alumni of the team we were playing. They were even calling players from that team by first name. We were man down for one + quarters and when they were ahead by like ten we started getting penalties in our favor.

[laxfan25]

My team had to deal with officials who were alumni of the team we were playing. They were even calling players from that team by first name. We were man down for one + quarters and when they were ahead by like ten we started getting penalties in our favor.
Obvious answer, get some of your alumni to become refs!

[lsm8fogo]

You can't really accuse a ref of cheating without being extremely careful of how you do it. I've refed many soccer games (i used to play, but then this wonderful game of lacrosse came along) and refs do make bad calls, or calls that the players/coaches think are bad. There's no real way to make sure that the call is good without instant replay, which most refs don't get to use. But, i do understand the frustration, my team lost our chance to go to playoffs last year because the ref, who coached the team that would go if we lost the game, made many bad calls in favor of the other team.

[LaxRef]

But, i do understand the frustration, my team lost our chance to go to playoffs last year because the ref, who coached the team that would go if we lost the game, made many bad calls in favor of the other team.

This is an intolerable situation. You just can't have officials working games for teams with which they are associated. I used to not accept games at the school where I coached another sport (and had no association with the lacrosse team).

And it's truly a no-win situation for the official. He can end up favoring the team he's associated with and screwing the other team, or he can end up trying so hard not to favor his team that he screws over his team. And almost no matter what happens, someone is going to accuse him of bias.

So, what do you do? Well, the best thing is to get your area to develop officials so you aren't stuck using coaches.

[chsattack22]

i am also a first year lax ref. i played all during highschool, but im not playing in college, so i decided to help the cause. In a situation like you describe, PlayOn, Your best bet is the either ignore, or ask the person to leave. If he continues, ask him after the game if he wants to ref. that usually get people off my back.

I am used to abuse from parents, i did soccer and baseball for 4 and 5 years respectivley, and those are more intense
every player in every sport gets mad at an official, its the middle of the game and adrenaline is going. if a call doesnt go your way your obviously not going to be pleased with the call, just deal with it and move on. instead of focusing on the game you are concentrating on a call, which will put you in a worse situation than what the call was.

some of you say you hate ignorant refs...well i hate ignorant players and fans, and im not a ref. i think parents are the worst, they act like its life or death. parents need to calm down and stop trying to live through their kids.

i fully support you guys and refs are only human, they miss things and make mistakes just like everyone else.

[lsm8fogo]

This is an intolerable situation. You just can't have officials working games for teams with which they are associated. I used to not accept games at the school where I coached another sport (and had no association with the lacrosse team).

And it's truly a no-win situation for the official. He can end up favoring the team he's associated with and screwing the other team, or he can end up trying so hard not to favor his team that he screws over his team. And almost no matter what happens, someone is going to accuse him of bias.

So, what do you do? Well, the best thing is to get your area to develop officials so you aren't stuck using coaches.

Well, Thankfully, that coach got in trouble with all the other coaches in the area, even the team that beat us, and he's no longer reffing in our conference. And we are getting more and better refs, which is a big plus.

[lacrossehead]

yea yea...ive said this a few times a couple other post up there but i shouldn't have said cheating i was really mad when i wrote it...ill watch my words more wisely next time...i think what my area needs its some experianced refs ...lacrose is new in my area and not many ppl know what there doing...thanks for the help guys

this can be closed moderators if you want...

[gobells34]

The refs in my area call what happend to your stick "table-ing" which happened to us when the equipment of the stick was illegal (too short, as someone else suggested) and so the stick got "tabled" and he got a 1 min NR. Then there was an illegal pocket, which got a 3 min NR, and he got the stick back. I think the reasoning was the pocket is fixable during the game, length is not.

[lehighvalleylax]

i had the worst ref EVER yesterday too. I got layed out from behind, and the ref called me on it. He said that i pushed someone from behind???? What a 'tard. Eventually it all sorted out and the other guy got the penalty. Thats definatley the worst. I know that he meant to call the other guys number but still.


I doubt "Thuglife" did anything wrong.

[lacrossehead]

yea thats right...but the weather was fine that day and it was said to be too pinched(he had no unit to measure with) and i didnt mess with my stick . i asked another ref the next day if it was illegal and said no...???...so the ref "tabled" my stick with little suppost and i have no postition to comment on that during the game..........there were a lot of other things that went rong that game so...