offsides during dead ball on end line out

[BeachRef]

Please help me with this situation. Team A has ball in attack area. A1 attempts pass to A2, who is standing behind cage at "X". A2 misses pass and ball goes out of bounds across endline. Lead official blows whistle, raises right hand into air (no horn) and indicates that team B now has possession. Trail official, standing at midline, notices that team B has gone offsides during substitution of player(s). Trail official signals offsides and awards ball back to team A. Is this correct? Must a team maintain onsides during a dead ball when there is no horn?

[LaxRef]

I think technically the answer might be "yes," but as a practical matter it probably makes more sense to just start play if you're ready and if he's offside then enforce appropriately. There's no advantage gained in a dead-ball offside.

On a dead-ball sub infraction, however, there may be a great deal of advantage gained from leaving early (special subs throught the sub area, not a horn sub). I've never called one of these, but I've warned teams to clean it up and would call it if I thought there was an advantage gained. And, of course, if play starts when they have too many men on the field because they didn't do their subs right during the dead ball, I'll call that, too.

[BeachRef]

Thank you sir. Now the rest of the story. I was the lead and my ref was trail. Coach B starts screaming at my ref that he can't be offsides during dead ball situation. Ref came to me to make sure that I had not restarted play and ask me my opinion on the situation. I responded that I thought the call was correct and would (of course) support his decision. I informed my ref that I believed that teams must stay onsides during a dead ball WITHOUT a horn. After talking to the coaches, my ref reversed himself and awarded the ball back to B. This is probably the "just" decision, since there was no advantage gained, but rules are rules and I might want to see a better, more definative statement about this situation in the rule book.

I forgot to ask coach B which other rules he is allowed to violate during a dead ball situation!

[Beacher]

Just to add some perspective, offside isn't a foul during a dead ball under ILF rules - not that it applies, but just to show that the coach wasn't totally out of line.

[BeachRef]

I really wouldn't characterize Coach B's thinking as out of line either, Beacher. The position is reasonable in this case. If Coach B told me it was ok to call me or my ref a foul name during a dead ball, I would most strongly disagree with him.
Perhaps all coaches would be better served to just stay onsides during ALL substitutions and never have to worry about it?

[stripes182]

My thought on this situation is that under NFHS and NCAA rules, I'm not particularly concerned about offsides during a dead ball. I'm more concerned about who is where during live play. In BeachRef's situation, I would say that the onus to stay onside is on the team that is substituting. During an endline OOB, I'm looking for the correct team to have possession, for them to be in bounds and for the goalie to be back in his crease if he chased a shot. I'm starting play as soon as all of these conditions are met. If a team choses to substitute, it is their responsibility to ensure that everyone is where they need to be when the ball is ready for play. Under NFHS and NCAA plays, the ball should be ready for play within five seconds under normal circumstances. Coaches should know that regular substitution is not an option in this situation, so I would be inclined to call the foul if the team was offside when the ball was ready. So, I guess I really don't care where everyone is during a dead ball (within reason, of course). I'm more concerned with who is where once the play is restarted.
To me, this is a distinctly different situation than a team having too few/many players on the field, because officials are responsible for ensuring that both teams are on the field when the ball is ready. At higher levels of play failure to comply would most likely result in a delay of game foul, but my primary focus is ensuring a fair restart. Does anyone here think I'm out of line with this interpretation?

[LaxRef]

To me, this is a distinctly different situation than a team having too few/many players on the field, because officials are responsible for ensuring that both teams are on the field when the ball is ready. At higher levels of play failure to comply would most likely result in a delay of game foul, but my primary focus is ensuring a fair restart. Does anyone here think I'm out of line with this interpretation?


Actually, NCAA says we have to ensure the correct number on the field at the start of each quarter and after each goal. NFHS just says that we have to do it at the beginning of the game.

I agree that it's good game management to do it after a time-serving penalty, after a timeout, and after a horn sub, but I think it's a bad idea to try to do it on other restarts (e.g., loose-ball technical, OOB) since it would inevitably slow the game down. This is why the teams should stay offside and sub properly: because they might be in violation when the whistle blows.

[BeachRef]

I have actually had a couple of coaches ask for horn on endline OOB this year. I try to restart play ASAP on endline OOB to head off the chinese fire drills over at the box and alert the players that the tempo will be quick in these situations. Of course, it all gets shot to heck when we run out of balls on the endline !

[wolfenburg]

Just to add some perspective, offside isn't a foul during a dead ball under ILF rules - not that it applies, but just to show that the coach wasn't totally out of line.

But under ILF rules the game starts as fast as posible, i.e. you can start a game off side. Therefore you should watch to be onside because game can go on fast.

[laxfan25]

IMHO, if the ball is dead we should not be enforcing any offsides violations, unless they are still offsides when the whistle is blown. Doing so makes no sense whatsoever.

[BeachRef]

While talking to the varsity H.S. coaches from my game yesterday, I asked them if a team must maintain onsides during non horn dead ball situations, both replied, without hesitation, yes.

[LaxRef]

IMHO, if the ball is dead we should not be enforcing any offsides violations, unless they are still offsides when the whistle is blown. Doing so makes no sense whatsoever.


I have a problem with the idea of starting play with a whistle when you know as you do so you'll be throwing a flag at the same time (or blowing the whistle again to turn the ball over). If we're ready to go and they're offside, wouldn't it be better to assess the penalty and then get a nice, clean restart?

I'm not talking about dinging a team because they stepped on the line during a dead ball, but when we're ready to go and they aren't onside. I almost feels like a 5-count, followed by a flag, would be appropriate, similar to when they won't give the player in possession 5 yards on a free play; in that case, you don't start play and throw the flag, but you throw the flag, assess the penalty, and then get a clean restart. I'm not saying the rules support a 5-count in this situation, just that it seems like a similar situation.

[MElaxRef]

I'm with Stripes182 on this one. Our job as officials in this situation is to restart play as quickly as possible. Sound the whistle and then call the game from there.

If a team is substituting on the fly during a dead ball, they should realize that the whistle could sound at any time. They need to be diligent about the process.

[laxfan25]

I have a problem with the idea of starting play with a whistle when you know as you do so you'll be throwing a flag at the same time (or blowing the whistle again to turn the ball over). If we're ready to go and they're offside, wouldn't it be better to assess the penalty and then get a nice, clean restart?

I'm not talking about dinging a team because they stepped on the line during a dead ball, but when we're ready to go and they aren't onside. I almost feels like a 5-count, followed by a flag, would be appropriate, similar to when they won't give the player in possession 5 yards on a free play; in that case, you don't start play and throw the flag, but you throw the flag, assess the penalty, and then get a clean restart. I'm not saying the rules support a 5-count in this situation, just that it seems like a similar situation.

I was just saying that we shouldn't be calling offsides during the actual dead-ball time. Let's say a middie and a D are going to change positions and the D comes over midfield before the middie has replaced him. I'm not going to whistle an offside violation then if we are not in live play. That was the gist of my point.

[Beacher]

I have a problem with the idea of starting play with a whistle when you know as you do so you'll be throwing a flag at the same time (or blowing the whistle again to turn the ball over). If we're ready to go and they're offside, wouldn't it be better to assess the penalty and then get a nice, clean restart?
I have to agree with LaxRef. If you blow the whistle knowing that by doing so you have to throw a flag... that's just poor game management. It looks bad on the official. Give the players an opportunity to correct the numbers/get onside. If it's slowing the game down then an IP call for delay of game is always appropriate.

[CardinalPuff]

I have to agree with LaxRef. If you blow the whistle knowing that by doing so you have to throw a flag... that's just poor game management. It looks bad on the official. Give the players an opportunity to correct the numbers/get onside. If it's slowing the game down then an IP call for delay of game is always appropriate.
had a similar situation the other night.....after a time out, Team A sends 11 players onto the field.....I'm the trail (with the restart) and I'm waiting for the single to end his stop sign....he's asking Coach A if he wants to start this way, answer is "Yes, let's go!"..... whistle, flag down......