Rule Suggestion NFHS and NCAA

[eme]

Neither the NFHS nor NCAA rulebook gives us clarification about what to do about technical foul violations during a dead ball. The problem arises, just to give one example, when an official recognizes a call for a TO and blows his whistle followed a split second later by a push with possession. Do we "eat" the flag, etc.?

Therefore, I would like to propose Rule 6-2-1.

The only technical fouls to be assessed during a dead ball are conduct fouls and delay of game (IP). Any personal foul during a dead ball will be assessed.

AR. Ball goes over the end line. Whistle stops play. A1 enters field before A2 departs. A1 steps back off the field before the whistle resuming play. No penalty.

AR. Coach A requests a TO and the official recognizes his request. Before he can blow his whistle, B1 pushes A1. No penalty.

AR. Whistle stops play. Before the resumption of play, A1 a) steps in the crease b) goes offsides. No penalty in a or b.

I think "delay of game" in my rule above is broad enough to cover those IP
violations that do not fit nicely into my rule: failure to provide a horn, uniform color violation, etc.

[laxfan25]

I think it is a good attempt at codifying something that we all do instinctively.

[LaxRef]

There are problems with this, though. Suppose A1 is awarded possession but the whistle hasn't blown to restart play just yet. A2 is cutting to try to get open just before the whistle blows, and A3 sets a moving screen. Or A2 tries to cut and B2 interferes or holds.

Under the proposed rule, you couldn't call these fouls because it's still technically a dead ball.

[eme]

An interference or a hold or an illegal screen before the whistle blows? No call.

[LaxRef]

An interference or a hold or an illegal screen before the whistle blows? No call.

I disagree based on TPOAD.

[eme]

Then an attackman running through the crease while the ball is dead, etc. etc. would have to be called. He is running through to lose his defender or to gain a more favorable position when the ball is whistled in. Or a player when the ball is dead along the sidelines runs down part way out of bounds to go down to his new position. He is participating in play from out-of-bounds (strictly speaking) What a nightmare game if you call these things.

This is the beauty of my conduct foul only or delay of game only to be called when ball is dead. Along with all personals.
Example:
Ball is dead off the end line. B1 holds A1 in a headlock until just before the whistle blows. Okay, we have USC, a personal foul.
Ball is dead off the end line. B1 holds A1's shirt for a bit longer than you would like before the whistle blows. Conduct foul.
Ball is dead off the end line. A1 holds B1's shirt for a second then lets go. No holding call. No call at all.

[LaxRef]

Ball is dead off the end line. B1 holds A1's shirt for a bit longer than you would like before the whistle blows. Conduct foul.

I don't think you can justify a conduct foul with the way that rule is written. Conduct fouls are player-to-official or coach-to-official only, but not player-to-player, coach-to-player, or player-to-coach.

[BeachRef]

How about all rules remain in effect unless play is stopped by a horn? IMO, it will keep the game flowing more smoothly and the players and coaches might actually become more attentive. Allowing pushes and offsides and crease violations during the dead balls to go on without punishment won't lead to anything good. In the long run, keeping all the rules in effect unless there is a horn will probably make for a more civil game for all and ultimately easier to officiate.

[CardinalPuff]

shot, goal, push causing crease violation (after ball in goal but before whistle).....

yea, i might eat my flag at this point.....

[LaxRef]

shot, goal, push causing crease violation (after ball in goal but before whistle).....

yea, i might eat my flag at this point.....

Officially, you throw the flag and then wave it off so everyone knows you saw it, but you're right that it doesn't make much difference.

[CardinalPuff]

Officially, you throw the flag and then wave it off so everyone knows you saw it, but you're right that it doesn't make much difference.
i know but the goal is scored, the ball is dead......isn't this a dead ball technical? if i throw my flag doesn't the penalty need to be assessed?

i know what i would do (throw flag, wave off) but isn't this what we are talking about, a dead ball technical foul?

and down the rabbit hole we go.....

[LaxRef]

Actually, it's often push-shot-goal-steps in crease or shot-push-goal-steps in crease, so it's not necessarily dead ball.

[shrekjr]

Trying to find a good place to jump in on this one but I agree with most everything that's been said. I know there are a lot of deadball things I ignore ("didn't see it coach") like offside near the substitution area, subbing on the wrong side of the cone, players on the field without proper equipment, etc. But I can also see some of Laxref's concernes in certain situations. I guess bottom line depends on the foul and TPOAD.

[MElaxRef]

I agree with eme's proposal. We can and should, use unsportsmanlike conduct (any other act considered unsportsmanlike by the officials) to cover situations where a player commits a dead ball technical foul to create a significant advantage.

Examples:
[1] Ball out of bounds on end line, A1 has been awarded possession. Before whistle, A2 pushes his defender, B1, hard enough to be open for a pass near the cage. A1 makes pass, A2 shoots and scores. Ruling: USC on A2, no goal.

This does require officials to exercise judgment. If the rules committee doesn't want nonreleasable USC fouls for such acts, then the technical foul rules should be amended to provide for a Conduct foul when a player interferes with the movement or positioning of an opponent during a dead ball.

[2] Ball out of bounds on end line, B1 has been awarded possession. Before whistle, B2 breaks upfield for a clearing pass and B3 interferes with A1, who was guarding B2. Ruling: USC on B3, ball goes to Team A.

[BeachRef]

MELaxRef- situation 2 with the USC on B3 seems a little harsh to me. How 'bout we just reset the players and go or issue a technical foul against B# for interference? We could do this under my suggestion that all rules remain in effect unless a horn is sounded. It seems to me that the USC in this situation, which may be the correct call currently, is like making a 5 MPH over speeding ticket into vehicular manslaughter because the speeding took place under a full moon.

[Woodenstick]

I don't think USC is a proper call for most dead-ball technical fouls. USC generally is limited to non-contact fouls, such as arguing with the official, bad language, baiting, taunting, leaving the field and not returning, intentionally failing to comply with substitution rules, or repeatedly committing the same tech. foul. There is a catch-all phrase "or any other act considered unsportsmanlike," but I don't think that you can place interference or most other technical dead ball fouls in this category, especially where the player is not deliberately fouling. Also, using USC for a technical dead-ball foul is a big increase in the penalty, as beach ref noted.

I think that the proper approach is to ignore deadball tech fouls that are meaningless (stepped in crease after goal scored...) and call the ones that mean something. In my game yesterday, I had a hard push right after a whistle. I called it as a dead-ball foul, possession switched to the fouled team, a fair result, and game control maintained. If it had been just a bump, I would have ignored it.