How to address problems with a Ref.

[Formerlaxdemon]

I had a very interesting and annoying situation this afternoon in a game. My team was playing one that matched us almost exactly in terms of size, numbers, and ability; we were looking forward to the match-up. We had two officials presiding over the game, one in his 30's and the other in his late 60's.

The elder gentleman made some very strange calls throughout the game including awarding possession to the home team after they threw it out of bounds on a pass. :argue: What really got me wondering and more than a little upset was in the third quarter the elder ref called my team for a defensive offsides. I was scratching my head in wonder, and the other team's coach was baffled by the call considering my defensemen and goalie were all perfectly in position. I tried to speak to the elder ref about the matter, but he said that he saw seven men on the other side and then proceeded to ignore me. :banghead:

I have never had a ref ignore me like this or plain be rude to me, but I suppose what I am wondering here that the refs could help me with is the matter of how to address someone in a situation like this. Is there any proper way to deal with this, or is it just a matter of taking it quietly? I think that perhaps the ref's age had something to do with it, but he didn't want to be spoken to by anyone, for any reason.

Thanks for all of your help. We won, but it really just had me annoyed and I would like to be prepared if such an event happened again.

[big crunch22]

adress him as sir, be polite, don't try to seem like your auguring or questioning the call, but have a finness that seems like your asking for an explenation of the call instead of saying something like "why did you call that?".
thats all i can really say, some refs are just power hungry and want to show their controll over the coaches and players

[the next 'one']

i know what you mean.

in one of our games about a month ago against a team that was ranked high above us, but we had a good chance of beating them, the ref called a slash on one of our defensemen. this was a slash, so he deserved the call. when our player was walking off the field, he turned around to listen to something our goalie had to say to him, and while walking backwards he ran into the ref. the ref interpreted this as "hitting" him. the ref then threw him out of the game and gave our team 4 minutes of penalty time...which i don't even think is possible...

anyways our coach asked for a timeout after a short argument about the riculosity of the call, and the ref ignored my coach, refusing to give us a time out, and actually said "No! I'm not talking to you!"

but i honestly don't even know how to deal with a ref like that. as we all know, it never really pays to mouth off to the ref. i have maybe seen it work out in the players favor one time, but every other time it usually ends up in another penalty for unsportsmanlike. i think the best way to handle it is to just keep mouths shut and get over the fact you got stuck with a crappy ref. too bad our team couldnt do that...

[Laxmann019]

Yeah usually you call him sir, some refs are just plain stubborn and there's nothing you can do about that. I think you're right that his age might have had something to do with it though.

[Formerlaxdemon]

adress him as sir, be polite, don't try to seem like your auguring or questioning the call, but have a finness that seems like your asking for an explenation of the call instead of saying something like "why did you call that?".
thats all i can really say, some refs are just power hungry and want to show their controll over the coaches and players


Believe me big crunch22, I have dealt with many refs over the years. I have never had a ref not respond to me after my having been respectful and polite to him. I have been a coach for 6 years and I played for 6 years also, and have never been "put off" like this.

[Formerlaxdemon]

I think some of you are you are confused. I have dealt with many refs over the years. I am not looking for a manner in which to speak to him, but rather how to deal with a ref's call that is even called into question by the opposing coach who gained by the ref's decision; he didn't even think that he should have gained possession. The question is is there any way at all to deal with a ref who refuses to acknowledge a coach.

[laxfan25]

About the only recourse you have is to call for the double-horn if it is a rules application issue. Even if it isn't, you'll at least get the ref to come over and talk to you. I think if you have refs that won't answer a polite question, either they are on a power trip or they are unsure of themselves. It's unfortunate, but that is the hand you were dealt that day. In our state the coaches are supposed to do ratings of officials, so submitting a rating or making a call to the assigner may help as well, just not for the current game. You will be helping your fellow coaches down the line though.

[big crunch22]

Believe me big crunch22, I have dealt with many refs over the years. I have never had a ref not respond to me after my having been respectful and polite to him. I have been a coach for 6 years and I played for 6 years also, and have never been "put off" like this.
then all i have to say is you might have cuaght him in a bad mood, just bad luck and nothing to do but not make him more angry

[CardinalPuff]

if he's as old as you say there is the possibility that he didn't hear you....

[Formerlaxdemon]

if he's as old as you say there is the possibility that he didn't hear you....

He was looking right at me and could see my lips moving. At the very least he could have asked me "huh?"

I think I simply caught him on a bad day, plain and simple. I should have called for the double horn, but hindsight being 20/20 and all that, I'll keep it in mind for the future.

[wolfenburg]

If all other Refs did hear you than this might realy the problem of the ref....
So if this happens ones every 12 years than don't think about it.....

[ColtsLax]

sometime ref just get in a bad mood, in a case like this, your probably better of going to the top, and talking to the assigner about it

[scruffy221]

There really isn't anything you can do if the Ref is just going to ignore you like that, my coach still get mad and Refs igonre him all the time. In times like those their the judge and jury and you are guilty until... well there really isn't a way to prove yourself innocent unless you can get the other Ref to listen/agree with you and then talk the other Ref into reversing his call.

[laxcomm]

This is for "the next one". Your player received 4 minutes in penalty time because he had a one minute slashing penalty and a three minute unsportsmanlike penalty. I officiated with someone who was once hit in intentionally in the face with a stick and another time he was struck in the face with a fist. If after these two incidents a player ran into him I could understand his reaction if he tossed the player. Maybe the official on your game had a similar incident.

[CardinalPuff]

This is for "the next one". Your player received 4 minutes in penalty time because he had a one minute slashing penalty and a three minute unsportsmanlike penalty. I officiated with someone who was once hit in intentionally in the face with a stick and another time he was struck in the face with a fist. If after these two incidents a player ran into him I could understand his reaction if he tossed the player. Maybe the official on your game had a similar incident.
for somebody who calls himself "the next one" he certainly dwells on the last one an awful lot.....

[Skubala]

The worst thing a coach or player can do is try to force the issue with an official. You can burn a time out and ask to talk through the issue. If the ref doesn't want to talk, you can't make him talk. But, you can make him mad. That's up to you.

If it's a judgment call, you're hosed. If it's a rule/interpretation question, it depends on the good grace of the ref as to whether he WANTS to talk about it. If it's just an error (both teams think the call was bad), it could be an honest mistake and the ref may honestly think he made the right call. You can ask him to consult with his partner - he doesn't have to. Baseball has the protest rule and it requires the umpires to consult, but it only applies to rules and interpretation issues. LAX has no protest. Your ultimate recourse is to call the assigner or head ref to complain, but that doesn't change your game situation.

On an out of bounds call where there was a clump of players around the ground ball and I awarded the ball to Team A. Both teams looked at me like I was nuts. I didn't see who touched it last, got no clues from the direction the ball was moving, and no player moved straight to the ball like it was his. I even glanced at my partner and he had a worse angle than me. I went with AP and got it wrong. Soooo, I told the guy who picked up the ball, "If I got it worng and you are a man of honor, just roll the ball out of bounds on the whistle." He kept the ball. LOL

What was worse, me getting the call wrong or the player taking "unfair" advantage of the call? Really, errors made with integrity seem to even out in the long run. I didn't lose any sleep over that one.

[LaxRef]

The worst thing a coach or player can do is try to force the issue with an official. You can burn a time out and ask to talk through the issue. If the ref doesn't want to talk, you can't make him talk. But, you can make him mad. That's up to you.

If it's a judgment call, you're hosed. If it's a rule/interpretation question, it depends on the good grace of the ref as to whether he WANTS to talk about it.


Actually, under NFHS rule 7-13, the officials HAVE to listen to you if you make an official challenge. And if a coach challenges a rule interpretation, the official refuses to change the call, and the coach is right, that coach should be on the phone with the assignor.

As an assignor, I've gotten isolated complaints about a number of officials. What I look for is:

1) Is it the same coaches complaining all the time?

2) Are the same officials being complained about all the time?

[Woodenstick]

1. These sound like judgment calls that the referee missed. Offside is often very tricky. If the official thought you had 7 players on one side, that means you are either offside or have too many players. Both are technical fouls. Once you call this, you have to be careful about changing your call because player movement might effect how things look. But even if the offical sees 4 on the d side, if you have 7 on the O side it is still a techncial.

On the out of bounds call, either the ref thought it was deflected or got "turned around" as to who passed the ball. It happens. The latter error is correctable though.

2. If you have a penalty and then "accidentally" bump the referee, you are either very unlucky or very stupid. Most referees don't take kindly to being bumped or jostled after a call.

[laxzeeb]

Your out of bounds situation clearly involves a misapplication of a rule so you clearly had the right to the double horn as 7/13 calls for, to me the question is do you waste it on a simple change of possession issue at a given point in the game, since, if the appeal is denied you lose a timeout. By the same token, if honorable, the other coach, who must also be present at the table, should agree the call was an error. If not, take the rest of the timeout time you have and use it with your team.

The offsides is a judgment call and not subject to appeal. Unless blatant, with a two man crew, I find offsides very difficult to observe if it is a jump over and back situation as opposed to eight guys running on the same half of the field situation. When I am the trail, I guess personal fouls, the more critical and safety related, are my priority.

I try to give coaches explanations when properly asked for unless it disrupts the game. One question, one answer, the end. I'm also honest if I miss or blow a call, its going to happen. There should be a mutual respect. I'd put this ref in the memory bank. If he's doing it to you, he's probably doing it to others. Talk to the other coaches. If you have to, you do raise it with the assigner and if true to form, you won't be the only one doing so.

[Skubala]

Actually, under NFHS rule 7-13, the officials HAVE to listen to you if you make an official challenge. And if a coach challenges a rule interpretation, the official refuses to change the call, and the coach is right, that coach should be on the phone with the assignor.

You are correct, sir, about the NFHS rule. But some coaches are worse than a femanist wife about accepting that they have "been heard". (I know from harsh experience, at home and on the field.) The coach is ALWAYS right when he files a complaint with the assigner. Why else would he complain?

When I am all done being accessible and listening to his challenge, if I still think the call is right, I'll say something like, "That doesn't change my mind, but thanks for your input." The inevitible retort is, "but, but, but, ..." Sometimes followed by something that garners a flag. I'm just trying to disengage and get the game started again, not be rude.

Officiating is a human endeavor. On a really good day I'm right and the coach is wrong. He still argues. It's not my job to prove I'm right. Strangely, it's not his job to prove I'm wrong. If he knows the rules and cites them (paraphrase is OK, it doesn't have to be chapter and verse), we can talk in those terms. Just not liking the call leaves us nowhere to go. Most coaches know the "game" better than they know the rules, anyway.

All of that to say, sometimes enough is enough and I just have to get the game going again. SORRY if it appears rude - "done talking" and rude are not the same thing. It sounds like the original situation in this thread might have been more on the rude end of the spectrum. In that case you just have to deal with what's in front of you. Bummer. That is a complaint about professional behavior, not a blown call. I'm sure most assigners want to know about that. But even that can be a red herring for "I didn't get my way".

[CardinalPuff]

Your out of bounds situation clearly involves a misapplication of a rule ....
why? coach thought it was a pass, official saw it as a shot....coach double horns me for that and we got problems amigo.....

[spenny]

The coach is ALWAYS right when he files a complaint with the assigner. Why else would he complain?

really?
i wouldnt think so, i'd assume that the coach is always wrong, and i'm a coach.

[LaxRef]

why? coach thought it was a pass, official saw it as a shot....coach double horns me for that and we got problems amigo.....

By rule, it's a shot if the official says it was. It's his judgment, and not subject to a 7-13 challenge. Sorry, coach, you just burned a timeout.

[PlayOn]

As a first year official in a short staffed league i've had quite a year learning how to handle coaches and I've discovered something about myself too. First of all, if you are a coach who likes to yell you'll find that you'll be ignored because it's just not worth it trying to talk to you. Second I will not engage a coach who is complaining about every call. I don't need to get in to a situation where all of a sudden I find myself citing the rule book every time I make a call, I'm the ref, i don't need to satisfy your need to understand (this happened to me in a game I was alone at and it led to a the coach totally losing it. I had to tell him to go have a conversation with himself and figure out what he was trying to accomplish today.). I will however happily call a time out and engage you in an official challenge of the rule if you can actually tell me what rule you or decision you are protesting. If you prove me wrong I will happily overturn the call and everyone wins, because I can call a better game being sure of a contestable rule.

In the specific circumstance FML is talking about, there's not much you can do except deal with it and report it to the assigner. Then at least you will get a written explanation from the official when he has to write it up. I know that's rough but clearly you had a ref with a chip on his shoulder that day. As a guy who in almost always the umpire, i've had my calls overturned and I've also been in a position where I see a guy make a terrible call and there is nothing I can do about it except find it in the rule book when we have a break. This will usually chill a guy out who is having an ego trip that day because it allows him to be corrected and save face. As far as debating your opinion of what a shot is vs a pass, there is no better way to be ignored by a ref than try this one out. What can you possibly gain by arguing this? I saw a pass, it's a pass. You saw a shot, i saw a lob pass to your guy at X who wasn't paying attention. Get over it.

[Formerlaxdemon]

Actually PlayOn, I have never called a Ref's actions into question before, nor am I one to even "yell" to the Ref. I wasn't too worried about the pass call, seeing as that is solely in rights of the Ref to call, but the offsides call is the only thing I mentioned to the Ref the entire time. To be respectful to a Ref throughout a game, and then to try and get his attention when both sides felt something wrong had happened and then to be ignored, that is what made me upset. I plan on reporting it, but even then... what is the point? It could have just been that Ref's bad day for all I know. I'm way past even caring about the call, I just want to be prepared in the future.

I personally don't feel that anything can be gained by arguing with a Ref. As a player I knew that, and as a coach I practice it and teach it. Arguing with the Ref = No. I would like to think, however, that a modicum of professional courtesy would be present in officials.

Such is life.

[PlayOn]

You absolutely should report it and I'll tell you why.Reporting incidents to the assigner is another way to help establish the type of protocol that you desire. A few weeks ago I was working a game on a rented public field. A volleyball team had reserved some space that was right behind the nets. I told the coach of the team that it was dangerous for him to be there and he told me he had the space reserved in about an hour and was setting up. I told him all i knew was that he could get hit by a ball. Time goes on and we've got about 7 mins left in the 4th. The balls goes on the sideline and there's a horn. All of a sudden i see this volleyball coach running towards me with a piece of paper in his hand yelling you guys are done, it's my space now. There was some field rep behind him looking all authoritative. I say to him, Sir, with all due respect we're both athletes here, let the kids finish their game and we'll be gone. This is a matter of sportsmanship. We go back and forth for another minute and he goes, nope you're done. So I look at the guy and say, well then, you're an A-hole. Luckily the home coach had made his way to the field by then and he managed to convince the guy to let us finish without making more of a scene. As he's leaving he looks at me and says, thanks for calling me an a-hole. And i reply, well you are one. So he's once again right up in my face and the field rep manages to get the guy away from me. We finish the game and that's the end of it.

Then a week later I find out that the school who rented the field is now having trouble renting the field time because of the incident and my assigner asks me to explain the above incident. I now learn that in that situation it's the responsibility of the home team's coach to deal with that and not me. I guess it may seem like a simple thing but in that very moment all I knew was i had a lacrosse game that needed to be finished. What I should have done from the start is stop the game and tell that coach to deal with this other guy setting up volleyball nets behind our playing field. Now I know that, before I didn't.

You'll probably end up working with this ref again and rather than have this bad blood and tension you can make him aware of what happened, and also get an explanation from him as to why he decided to hand out such a severe penalty. Maybe he was taking a lot of crap that night from the other coach or he was letting a lot of trash talking go on the field and when a kid ran in to him he just lost it. So many things could have caused this reaction. Open a discourse and in the future this guy will be more open to hearing you out.

[laxfan25]

I think your story also shows that as officials we need to rise above the fray. As much as we might want to call someone an anal pore, you need to bite your tongue and maintain your professional decorum.
I will admit there have been times (some even in the recent days) where I have felt like giving a coach my shirt and whistle and saying YOU go call the game and I'll stand here and coach - and then I realize that they are paying me to do my job, while the coach is making a pittance. I will also admit that in the last two weeks there was a "fan" on the sideline who was making obnoxious comments about my very good calls, and I scratched the back of my head with one finger. I know he noticed. While it gave me a brief moment of gratification, upon later reflection I realized I lowered myself to his level, instead of maintaining that professional appearance that I reminded you of earlier in this post. No, we're not perfect, or anywhere close to it, but it is incumbent upon us to always strive to be composed and under control of the game and our emotions. It can be a challenge!

[bigdale9]

YELL AT HIM just kidding!! point out the problem and have your coach talk to him the other day i was playing park in maryland when this big bruiser slashed our center middie. the ref was busy dealing with somthing else and our bench coach pointed this out to him and the guy got a 1 min penalty

[inblack]

without having read the entire thread....

my 2 cents:

After the game, maybe the following day, or the next time you see him, talk, be social, (polite obviouslly) and ask. Any real person will answer you, we are all people, we are not here to make enemies. You may not like the answer or even agree with him, but you have opened up a new vien, and hey respect is mutual, I need you to respect me, the least I can do is show some to you. Most coaches up here have found how well that works with me.

[gobells34]

this is a topic i need, b/c our league doesnt let us talk to the refs at all, not a word or we get a penalty, if the assistant coach says a word, USC, automatically. I think players should be polite and accept refs calls, but sometimes i want to know what he wants in a check and how hes gunna call it so that i can talor how i play to avoid the box. I play hockey, too and am the captain so i know what a great asset being able to clarify things is.

We played out of our area once, and i had gotten 2 slash calls in the first 3 minutes of the game. So after the second the ref during a stoppage told me exactly what he wanted "3 slap checks and you're fine once i see the 4th, im tossin the flag." I had no problems with that and i told my coach cuz hes didnt know why i was called and he was fine with that too.

I think refs should be more aproachable if they dont want to get scrutinized so much and just left to call their game.


(sorry that was so long folks)

[Carroll81]

this is a topic i need, b/c our league doesnt let us talk to the refs at all, not a word or we get a penalty, if the assistant coach says a word, USC, automatically. I think players should be polite and accept refs calls, but sometimes i want to know what he wants in a check and how hes gunna call it so that i can talor how i play to avoid the box. I play hockey, too and am the captain so i know what a great asset being able to clarify things is.

We played out of our area once, and i had gotten 2 slash calls in the first 3 minutes of the game. So after the second the ref during a stoppage told me exactly what he wanted "3 slap checks and you're fine once i see the 4th, im tossin the flag." I had no problems with that and i told my coach cuz hes didnt know why i was called and he was fine with that too.

I think refs should be more aproachable if they dont want to get scrutinized so much and just left to call their game.


(sorry that was so long folks)


Here is the downside to that conversation from the officials side:

1. What if the game turns into a blowout and is starting to get chippy. He may decide he has to tighten things and decides he is only going to give you one slap. Now you're pissed because he is not calling it the way he told you he would.

2. If he has that conversation every time he makes a call the game is going to drag.

3. If he has the conversation with you, but not others, the other team is going to wonder why they are not getting the same treatment.

I am not saying that officials should not be approachable. Good refs know when to allow it and when not to. If you want to try to approach him, perhaps try jogging next to him when he is lining up for a FO or walking to confer with his partner during a TO.

[laxfan25]

I had a play last night where a defending middie was covering A1 clearing the ball upfield. After A1 passed the ball, the middie continued on and hit the player. It wasn't hard enough to knock him down, but it was obviously a late hit although not a very hard one. I threw a flag and gave him 30 seconds for interference.
I like that call for those situations - I want to send a message that I'm watching the after-pass stuff, but don't think it merits a full minute.
At the quarter break I called him for the stick check so I could talk to him. I said, "you know why I gave you that flag, right?" He replied - "Yeah, I just got a little over-excited out there." I told him I went easy on him with the technical, and we were on the same page.
One thing I dislike though is when a coach may be questioning a call in a relatively polite manner, I explain what we saw and what was called, and they want to continue to dispute the call. It's not bad enough in my book to ding 'em, but I just find it annoying. It's not like I'm going to reverse my call because you don't agree with it - just let it go!

[KRP]

In response to formerlaxdemon, could you have had your at home talk to him? I have no idea why a ref would take a player more seriously, maybe the ref was scared of you and would have rather brought it up with a kid.

[laxman200]

I think some of you are you are confused. I have dealt with many refs over the years. I am not looking for a manner in which to speak to him, but rather how to deal with a ref's call that is even called into question by the opposing coach who gained by the ref's decision; he didn't even think that he should have gained possession. The question is is there any way at all to deal with a ref who refuses to acknowledge a coach.


just ask why he gave that call...
we had ref that was like that. kids stick was illegal and we called for a stick check but the ref just ignored us :jawdrop: