Lactate Training

[Cburylax]

This is a continuation of the conversation of lactate threshold training from the Perfect Push Up thread:



My suggestion is to try this form of training called MELT; Metabolic Efficient Lactate Training. It combines functional strength and muscular endurance, the time under tension is over a minute a set, and is designed to increase yoru lactate threshold. The side effect is also massive fat loss, great for cutting up.

---------------------------
Set - composed of three exercises, 1 total body, 1 lower body, 1 upper body with NO rest between exercises.
Rest BETWEEN sets - you should wait until your resting heart rate returns to normal before doing the next set
Reps - 8-15
Tempo - 2/1/2
Total Sets per group - 3
Total Groups per workout - 3-4

Example Set 1

Squat with plate press
- hold a 35lb plate with both hands at your chest, perform a squat, at the top press the plate out and back to your chest. Repeat. (first timers use a 10lb plate)

Box Steps
- grab two dumbbells, step up 10-12 times per leg as quickly as you can with good form.

Pull Ups
- perform regular pull ups


Example Set 2

Jumps squat with medicine ball
- Squat with 8lb med ball and touch the ground, explode up and push ball up to ceiling but dont' let go

Stability Ball Push up
- push up on stability ball

Lateral DB lunges
- Lunge laterally with dumbbells


You can also use cleans, kettlebell movements, stability ball work, etc. Weight isnt' a factor here, what you're trying to do is:

1. Elevate and maintain lactate levels in your entire body through out the set

2. Get your heart rate up quickly and let it return to normal

This will stimulate your body to increase your lactic acid threshold and improve your recovery time.

---------------------------


Let me know what you think

C

[tiplax]

NO rest between within a set.
Rest between sets - you should wait until your resting heart rate returns to normal before doing the next set
could you clear that up for me? i'm a little confused.

[Cburylax]

could you clear that up for me? i'm a little confused.

sorry...typo....should read like this

Set - composed of three exercises, 1 total body, 1 lower body, 1 upper body with NO rest between exercises.
Rest BETWEEN sets - you should wait until your resting heart rate returns to normal before doing the next set

[tiplax]

what do you mean by tempo "2/1/2"?
and is this supposed to be done in addition to my normal work out, or a workout on it's own?

and how often per week do you recommend this?

[Cburylax]

what do you mean by tempo "2/1/2"?
and is this supposed to be done in addition to my normal work out, or a workout on it's own?

and how often per week do you recommend this?

Tempo = Eccentric, Isometric, Concentric

Example - Bench Press

Starting at the top

Resist 2 seconds
Hold for 1 second
Exert for 2 seconds


This is a workout by itself, try it 3 times per week. Once you can tolerate it add a 4th day. You should see significant advancement in 3-4 weeks.

[the wister]

what do you mean by tempo "2/1/2"?
Think of it like this:
During a bench press, lower the weight for 2 seconds, pause at chest for 1 second, press weight upward for 2 seconds
and is this supposed to be done in addition to my normal work out, or a workout on it's own?
On it's own, I believe

[tiplax]

sounds interesting. I'm gonna try this starting next week(after finals)
i'm curious, have you/any one you know tried this? i don't want to be the 1st and find out it kills you. lol

[Cburylax]

I'm currently doing it right now and I've done it for the past two years when I want to lean up. I don't waste time doing cardio, this works way better and you get to use weights..yay! Of course diet needs to be very clean too.

I would suggest starting slow, writing down your exercises beforehand, and not pushing past your limit. People can get light headed very fast doing this so you need to know when to stop. Also, use common sense here, if you're tired, don't load up the bench press at the last set...be safe.

[tiplax]

sounds good. so i assume the purposeof this is to cut down your body fat through a cardio strength work out? once you get your body fat down to your ideal size, should you continue to do this? or go back to a normal cardio warm up followed by my reular gym workout(weights/mechines)?

[Cburylax]

sounds good. so i assume the purposeof this is to cut down your body fat through a cardio strength work out? once you get your body fat down to your ideal size, should you continue to do this? or go back to a normal cardio warm up followed by my reular gym workout(weights/mechines)?

This would depend on your goals, if you need size...this won't work like a hypertrophy scheme would. Train for your goals. The goal of MELT is to increase lactate thresholds and recovery time.


C

[tiplax]

and does it matter what kind of upper body/lower body excercises you do? as long as they are upper/lower body/whole body workouts?

[Cburylax]

and does it matter what kind of upper body/lower body excercises you do? as long as they are upper/lower body/whole body workouts?

Doesn't matter but use all types of exercises and make sure you use a good proportion of multiplanar movements, ie lateral lunges instead of forward lunges, alternating dumbell presses on a stabiliy ball, one leg squats, etc.

You can use machines but try to use mainly free weights

Exercise types
Power
Strength
Functional
Bodyweight

[LiquidMercury16]

Ok just woke up. Now to continue....

For one I'm not a fan of the workout. I can see that being somewhat helpful to people who are not overly strong and have minimal lactic acid threshold. If someone has a good strength base and good lactic acid threshold levels than I'd recommend something more alone the lines of German Volume Training:
10 sets of 10 reps on two different workouts
Workout 1
60% of bench, squat, dynamic rows. Do a set of bench, set of squat, set of dynamic rows and than take a fixed rest period, but keep it under 90 seconds. So basically for each 10 sets keep the rest the same. When you ahve trouble hitting all 10 ses of 10 reps, wave down (tiro wave) and go down to 6 reps. Bring it back up to 10 reps for your last 3 sets. If you can do 7 of the sets with at least 10 reps, you can either increase the weight or decrease the rest. Once your rest gets to 30 seconds, always increase the weight.

The second day of the workout is 60% of deadlifts, power cleans, and standing military press. Same concepts as the workout above.

The third day you would do a repeat of the first day. Take two days off, let your CNS recover. I've used this workout while training for the olympics for rowing (a sport that truly does require unbelievably high lactic acid threshold) and it has always helped. Not to mention it's just one hell of a workout for weightlifters. It will shock your body so much that if you are in a calorie deficient diet it will help you lose fat significantly and if you are calorie excessive it will help shock your body for growth.

And Cbury if you are trying to cut down, I'd recommend trying a ketogenic diet (my personal favorite is GSD, but AD is pretty good too). Other than ketogenics carb cycling would be great. You should know, at least I hope you would, that fat loss is about 90% diet and 10% training. As far as cardio goes I despise it and generally don't do it unless I'm trying to get in the sub 6% range.

As far as 2/1/2 approach, I'm completely against it. I'll have to do some searching for the research to back this up when i have more time but basically, as atheletes when lifting the concentric and eccentric phases should be done as fast as safely possible. This will increase the amount of Force being applied in your lifts. More force = more strength. When you come to a plateau in your lifting it means you do not have the necessary force to lift it. Look at it like speed training (dynamic effort days to power lifters). When you are lifting submaximal weights train your CNS (central nervous system) to lift them with as much force applied as possible. This will prep your CNS to apply that same force to maximal lifts. The 2/1/2 approach also places your joints under strain for excessive time. I'm all for doing isometrics in TRAINED athletes so having joints under stress in that scenario is ok, but the 2/1/2 approach isn't best used for people at this forum. Also 2/1/2 approach does nothing for applied force and speed work. Yes it keeps it under control, which is a good thing and will get kids thinking about it. But it should only be used as that and for very little time in a persons workout beginnings to teach them form. Once proper form is taught, move on. If you get to lifting heavy loads and your shoulders are hurting this will only make it worse.

[Cburylax]

I like your thought process and ideas LM, and I know people of this forum will appreciate this discussion. I also invite other members to add their two cents and ask questions.

Ok just woke up. Now to continue....

For one I'm not a fan of the workout. I can see that being somewhat helpful to people who are not overly strong and have minimal lactic acid threshold. If someone has a good strength base and good lactic acid threshold levels than I'd recommend something more alone the lines of German Volume Training:
10 sets of 10 reps on two different workouts
Workout 1
60% of bench, squat, dynamic rows. Do a set of bench, set of squat, set of dynamic rows and than take a fixed rest period, but keep it under 90 seconds. So basically for each 10 sets keep the rest the same. When you ahve trouble hitting all 10 ses of 10 reps, wave down (tiro wave) and go down to 6 reps. Bring it back up to 10 reps for your last 3 sets. If you can do 7 of the sets with at least 10 reps, you can either increase the weight or decrease the rest. Once your rest gets to 30 seconds, always increase the weight.

The second day of the workout is 60% of deadlifts, power cleans, and standing military press. Same concepts as the workout above.

The third day you would do a repeat of the first day. Take two days off, let your CNS recover. I've used this workout while training for the olympics for rowing (a sport that truly does require unbelievably high lactic acid threshold) and it has always helped. Not to mention it's just one hell of a workout for weightlifters. It will shock your body so much that if you are in a calorie deficient diet it will help you lose fat significantly and if you are calorie excessive it will help shock your body for growth.

I think you can see that the German Volume training scheme uses the same concept as MELT, so I'm wondering why you would be so fast to give a negative opinion of it. If we look closely, we can see that both are using free weights and triple sets to increase lactate levels, and a prescribed rest period between groups (you mentioned 90 seconds).

The only difference I see is the weight and exercise selection in the routine. As you mentioned, it is designed for weightlifters. My suggestion for MELT is not designed for anyone specific, but can be tailored to weight lifters, athletes, middle aged women, and kids. I think we need to look beyond weightlifting, especially in this forum since it is composed of lacrosse athletes, and try to provide general guidelines for athletes, agreed? (I find the difference in training athletes and weight lifters to be significant and mainly the result of exercise selection)

You mention deadlifts, power cleans, and standing military press as a triple set. Excellent and this certainly fits within the MELT concept. You also mention the high fat loss rate, and the lactate threshold adaptation, same as MELT. The only difference I see is that the Germain Volume Training is the MELT concepts designed for weightlifters, yes?

What I would add to this workout to make it more athlete appropriate would be mulit planar strength movements. (We can tangent into multiplanar movements in a different thread and their pros/cons if you want.) The suggestions I gave for the sample workout take into account the members of this forum which are mainly inexperienced lifters, not a definition of the types of exercises and weight that compose MELT. MELT is a concept, not a workout.

Also, it would be irresponsible to recommend many power movements here, and in fact here is my disclaimer (TALK TO A TRAINING PROFESSIONAL AND SEE A DOCTER BEFORE STARTING A WORKOUT PROGRAM)




And Cbury if you are trying to cut down, I'd recommend trying a ketogenic diet (my personal favorite is GSD, but AD is pretty good too). Other than ketogenics carb cycling would be great. You should know, at least I hope you would, that fat loss is about 90% diet and 10% training. As far as cardio goes I despise it and generally don't do it unless I'm trying to get in the sub 6% range.

I have a degree in Nutritional Science with a Minor in Sports Medicine, and I'm pursuing my RD.

I would not recommend a Ketogenic diet to the members of this forum. They are simply not at a point where that kind of diet manipulation is necessary or healthy. While they may work for fat loss, my opinion is that they never belong with High School athletes for any reason.

As far as 2/1/2 approach, I'm completely against it. I'll have to do some searching for the research to back this up when i have more time but basically, as atheletes when lifting the concentric and eccentric phases should be done as fast as safely possible.

There is nothing wrong or dangerous with a 2-1-2 tempo, just like there is nothing wrong with a 1-0-1, or 4-4-2. I'll need to see some sources on that. Tempos are used to create different training stimulus. If you are going for power then the of course the 1-0-1 should be used. Again, I've taken into account the members of this forum. a 2-1-2 is a safer and more controlled tempo, not my personal opinion of the known training protocols for strength and power.



Look at it like speed training (dynamic effort days to power lifters). When you are lifting submaximal weights train your CNS (central nervous system) to lift them with as much force applied as possible. This will prep your CNS to apply that same force to maximal lifts.

[QUOTE=LiquidMercury16] The 2/1/2 approach also places your joints under strain for excessive time. I'm all for doing isometrics in TRAINED athletes so having joints under stress in that scenario is ok, but the 2/1/2 approach isn't best used for people at this forum. Also 2/1/2 approach does nothing for applied force and speed work. Yes it keeps it under control, which is a good thing and will get kids thinking about it. But it should only be used as that and for very little time in a persons workout beginnings to teach them form. Once proper form is taught, move on. If you get to lifting heavy loads and your shoulders are hurting this will only make it worse.

The 2/1/2 tempo doesn't place unnecessary stress on joints, it increases time under tension. Bad form stresses joints. I think where we're missing each other is that you're trying to apply what I'm saying to weightlifting, while I'm trying to provide a general idea for efficient lactate training.

Balls in your court....

[the wister]

Quick turnover C, I'm going to take posession.
As far as 2/1/2 approach, I'm completely against it. I'll have to do some searching for the research to back this up when i have more time but basically, as atheletes when lifting the concentric and eccentric phases should be done as fast as safely possible.
I'm not a big fan of 2/1/2 either, but I wouldn't say that one should aim to perform all phases of the lift as fast as possible. The eccentric portion should be notably longer than the concentric, maybe not significantly, but there should be effort. The default tempo should be something more like 2/1/0, not necessarily in seconds, just proportionally. This ensures that the load is controlled during the descent and lessens the likelyhood of injury. This also increases the time under tension for the muscles. The slight pause when changing direction keeps the lifter from using momentum to finish the lift. Otherwise you'll end up developing terrible form and come across as an individual who has no appreciation for the benefits of lifting and is simply trying to finish a workout as fast as possible. The Concentric portion should always be performed with full force to generate the maximum amount of resistance from the load.
Of course there is a time and place for longer/shorter eccentric portions and pauses, but I really see no advantage to altering the concentric portion with exception to MAYBE strengthening the neuromuscular connection. Or for increasing your workout length.

Liquid I can see your argument for stress on joints, but I think you can only really apply that on a case by case basis. For example doing bicep curls in a 5/1/5 fashion would have very little consequence, but applying that same tempo to nearly any leg exercise would be masochistic for obvious reasons.

[LiquidMercury16]

Back from the gym and continuing this discussion haha:

As far as MELT concept goes, I agree with the concept. My issue was more with the routine you had provided. I think that full body compound movements should be used and the weight selection is prevelent. Someone like myself or other trained athletes (most notably college lax players) would stand to gain little from something that doesn't force enough stress on the muscles. Doing bodyweight exercises would do very little in my opinion for someone who can bench their body weight, squat twice their bodyweight and along the same lines for deadlifts, powercleans, etc. etc. So that is why I recommend higher weight loads and the compound lifts because it activates more muscle fiber, increases EPOC (Exercise Post Oxygen Consumption), and increases lactate threshold.

Now as far as ketogenic diets. I recommend that to you cbury, not anyone on this board because I do not know anyones training levels here. I imagine you are a trained athlete or at least would know whether not you were in shape enough and trained enough to participate in a ketogenic type diet. Like I said I wouldn't offer this to anyone I did not know personally and could not oversee but you have credentials so I assume otherwise.

I still worry about the time under impact with the 2-1-2 tempo. Under heavy loads (90% 1RM) this will put stress on your joints, mainly because it's going to be harder to maintain proper form the heavier you go and just for the fact that your tendons and joints will be under stress because your muscle will transfer some of the load to them.

[Cburylax]

Quick turnover C, I'm going to take posession.

I'm not a big fan of 2/1/2 either, but I wouldn't say that one should aim to perform all phases of the lift as fast as possible. The eccentric portion should be notably longer than the concentric, maybe not significantly, but there should be effort. The default tempo should be something more like 2/1/0, not necessarily in seconds, just proportionally. This ensures that the load is controlled during the descent and lessens the likelyhood of injury. This also increases the time under tension for the muscles. The slight pause when changing direction keeps the lifter from using momentum to finish the lift. Otherwise you'll end up developing terrible form and come across as an individual who has no appreciation for the benefits of lifting and is simply trying to finish a workout as fast as possible. The Concentric portion should always be performed with full force to generate the maximum amount of resistance from the load.
Of course there is a time and place for longer/shorter eccentric portions and pauses, but I really see no advantage to altering the concentric portion with exception to MAYBE strengthening the neuromuscular connection. Or for increasing your workout length.

I'll make a statement which shows the point I'm trying to make.

"Tempos are used to elicit a specific response, there is no right or wrong tempo or even a default tempo"

This article gives a great explanation:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/likness15.htm

Liquid I can see your argument for stress on joints, but I think you can only really apply that on a case by case basis. For example doing bicep curls in a 5/1/5 fashion would have very little consequence, but applying that same tempo to nearly any leg exercise would be masochistic for obvious reasons.

I don't see the argument for stress on joints with regard to tempo. Wister, can you explain the obvious reasons for not using a 5/1/5 tempo with a squat, I just don't see how this would be bad or dangerous? I know I couldn't use the same weight for a 5/1/5 squat that I do for a 3/1/2 squat, that to me is obvious.

The 2/1/2 tempo I posted with regard to MELT isn't something specific. Its a starting point that I use with most athletes who have never tried this before. I change it up as soon as I see them progress to stop any plateau effect.

[Cburylax]

Back from the gym and continuing this discussion haha:

As far as MELT concept goes, I agree with the concept. My issue was more with the routine you had provided. I think that full body compound movements should be used and the weight selection is prevelent. Someone like myself or other trained athletes (most notably college lax players) would stand to gain little from something that doesn't force enough stress on the muscles. Doing bodyweight exercises would do very little in my opinion for someone who can bench their body weight, squat twice their bodyweight and along the same lines for deadlifts, powercleans, etc. etc.

I've experienced quite the opposite in the last few years training athletes. In fact, its usually the biggest guys who usually fail to complete my bodyweight workout. It really comes down to a little physiology and with the proper manipulation its pretty simply to cripple a bodybuilder or power lifter. Most (and I don't' include you or anyone else in this since I don't' know your fitness levels) guys who train with bodybuilding sets, reps, and tempos using single plane movements like deadlifts, bench press, military press, leg press, squats, etc don't have the neuromuscular ability to stabilize their body in loaded multiplanar movements. Toss in a 4/4/2 tempo or even back to back plyometrics and they just don't have the lactate threshold or clearance to keep up. It can actually be quite comical to see such big guys drop dead using a stability ball and nothing else.



Now as far as ketogenic diets. I recommend that to you cbury, not anyone on this board because I do not know anyones training levels here. I imagine you are a trained athlete or at least would know whether not you were in shape enough and trained enough to participate in a ketogenic type diet. Like I said I wouldn't offer this to anyone I did not know personally and could not oversee but you have credentials so I assume otherwise.

Understood. Thanks for clarifying.

I still worry about the time under impact with the 2-1-2 tempo. Under heavy loads (90% 1RM) this will put stress on your joints, mainly because it's going to be harder to maintain proper form the heavier you go and just for the fact that your tendons and joints will be under stress because your muscle will transfer some of the load to them.

Yes, you are correct. But I think we both agree that form comes first. With that being the case, experienced lifters would know you can't use a 4/4/2 tempo with weight used with a 1/0/1 tempo, it just isn't possible.

Any tempo with 2 or more seconds at the isometric part of the movement will cause the elastic tension of the muscle and tendon to dissipate, in which case hopefully a spotter would be nearby, right?

[LiquidMercury16]

Yes, you are correct. But I think we both agree that form comes first. With that being the case, experienced lifters would know you can't use a 4/4/2 tempo with weight used with a 1/0/1 tempo, it just isn't possible.

Any tempo with 2 or more seconds at the isometric part of the movement will cause the elastic tension of the muscle and tendon to dissipate, in which case hopefully a spotter would be nearby, right?

Ok so long as you agree that it is mostly dependent on weight used. I was mainly worried that you were argueing that you could use something like a 2/1/2 or 4/4/4 type deal under heavy weight in which case this would be over stretching the tendons if done with heavy enough weight. I'm not a fan of isometric exercises with people who do not have a good foundation of strength. Anyone who cannot do the following, I would say doesn't have a good foundation of strength:

Bench: 1X their own bodyweight
Squat: 1.5X their own bodyweight (going at least parallel to the ground)
Deadlift: 2x their own bodyweight
Power Clean: 1x their own bodyweight
High Pull: 1.5X their own bodyweight

Only after someone can get these type of numbers would I consider allowing them to try isometrics.

[laxCCM]

I'm thinking about trying this workout and it seems pretty good - the only thing im worried about is that in the perfect pushup thread liquid mercury said something about converting your fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch muscle fibers which i definitely don't want. Will doing this workout convert my fast twitch fibers to slow twitch? If not I'll definitely try it.

[LiquidMercury16]

If you are doing 100's of them at a time. I was exagerating some, but endurance work tends to produce more slow twitch fibers than fast twitch. Sprinters have some of the highest fast twitch fiber muscle count while endurance runners are mainly slow twitch. Same principals apply for lifting.

[Diesel4958]

If you are doing 100's of them at a time. I was exagerating some, but endurance work tends to produce more slow twitch fibers than fast twitch. Sprinters have some of the highest fast twitch fiber muscle count while endurance runners are mainly slow twitch. Same principals apply for lifting.

I was under the impression one could not "Morph" or "change" fiber types, but instead train for a certain type ex: sprinting, explosive weights for training fast or running, rowing etc for slow. And it was also my understanding genetics decided what percentage of each. Please correct me if i'm wrong. I have no back up for this last part but read somewhere that athletes that put there bodies under extreme extreme pressure may be able to recruit more, and even change Type II A fibers into Type II B fibers. This has always really interested me if C, or wister could add or straighten my info out that would be great.

[LiquidMercury16]

genetics decide a good portion of % of muscle fiber type but you can train yourself to have more of a particular kind versus another. There is some deviation. I'll try and find the research to back this up but in my own training experiences everyone has always told me that genetics determin a good portion of the percentage but you can still train change. And yes you can change fiber types. I wouldn't say necessarily morph, I'd say more along the lines of you create new muscle fiber of a different type and reduce fiber of another sort. Kind of like fat loss and muscle gain. You can't just turn fat into muscle. And muscle does not turn into fat, but via training you can increase one and decrease the other.

[Diesel4958]

genetics decide a good portion of % of muscle fiber type but you can train yourself to have more of a particular kind versus another. There is some deviation. I'll try and find the research to back this up but in my own training experiences everyone has always told me that genetics determin a good portion of the percentage but you can still train change. And yes you can change fiber types. I wouldn't say necessarily morph, I'd say more along the lines of you create new muscle fiber of a different type and reduce fiber of another sort. Kind of like fat loss and muscle gain. You can't just turn fat into muscle. And muscle does not turn into fat, but via training you can increase one and decrease the other.

Create new muscle fibers as in how? Splitting (doubling) of fibers like a sort of hyperplasia? Completely creating a new one? Or just the hypertrophy of a fiber type while the other fiber type stays the same, and or atrophies?

[LiquidMercury16]

Not hyperplasia even though that will happen on occasion I've been told. I'm talking about completely creating a new muscle fiber and hypertrophy of old.

[ByrdDpole]

So you say a side effect of this is fat loss...

So, if I eat healthy, and do this, in enough time I'd start to lose, say, belly fat? Or fat in the areas that are being trained?

Also, how many days a week should this be done?

[Cburylax]

I lost 9lbs in 4 weeks doing this 4 times a week. Each workout lasts about an hour and fifteen minutes. A clean diet is key.

[ByrdDpole]

I lost 9lbs in 4 weeks doing this 4 times a week. Each workout lasts about an hour and fifteen minutes. A clean diet is key.

Sounds good. When I start going to the gym I'll do this.

Thanks.